Pets: Allow morality targeting for owners with sense morality

[Mousus6]

Not sure how cursed the pet code is (it's probably pretty bad) but I suspect Transcendent attempting to be good pet masters would greatly appreciate the ability to mimic angelic targeting for their pets.

Probably the ideal version of this adds a set of toggles to the pet panel like the weapon toggles for each of the moralities the pets could be allowed to attack agressively, good, neutral, evil, true-neutral. Not sure whether you would want a similar automatic override of going aggressive on anything that has killed a faction member in their presence regardless of morality (as an equivalent to the angelic anti-angel killing revenge feature) but that is probably both more annoying to code and not worth the hassle. Probably hide the panel behind sense morality.

Another option that is possibly less of a coding nightmare is allow some form of lasts through death trivially removable status buff from angels (tagged onto some existing skill) that makes all pets summoned by that petmaster whilst the buff is up statistically identical morally discerning ones that are forced into angel pet style targeting like the exalted bat swarms but without any actual buff to the pets.

[erikune]

I feel like this is sort of a feature, instead of a bug.

Good characters have a number of difficulties in combat. They need to buy a 10CP Sense Morality skill to even know who valid targets are, assuming they aren't just willing to attack anyone and potentially lose their MO. And angels need to buy the (normally 60CP) Hand of Zealotry skill to even fight back against neutral targets, to avoid losing all their abilities completely when attacking in response. Even then, picking up HoZ can lock the angel out of potential options, such as Lightspeakers being unable to donate pets to Alonai for their endgame if they have HoZ.

In exchange, they sort of get a benefit. They can just select Hostile to All and get the benefit of attacking all valid targets, while protecting all Good targets regardless of faction affiliation. They aren't forced to choose between Hostile to Non-Faction (which causes problems with another faction trying to help) or Hostile to Aggressive (which ignores unfactioned or third party faction characters) when choosing who to target.

Unaligned characters have none of those problems. They're free to chop up whoever they like. A Lich or Elementalist can set their pets free on any room and reap all the EXP. And their pets aren't going to be concerned about the MO when defending the petmaster. But the benefit of all that - not needing to invest 70CP in MO-focused skills, not needing to pass up on targets, not needing to take a skill that could lock out future options - is in exchange for the pets being free to attack anything they like. As much as my Revenant would like their ̶w̶o̶l̶v̶e̶s̶ foxes to only eat the bad people, they're still inclined to munch on whatever angel happens by as well. Which means that I need to be willing to put the pets on defensive or unsummon them when trying to play nice with others.

(Yes, I realize wolves can't be set to defensive. I meant unaligned pets in general.)

[Mousus6]

I am by no means suggesting to take away the ability of neutral pets to be omnicidal that is certainly awesome if you want it. Just remembering how stressful having an elementalist in a good faction back in Nexus War was in terms of not accidentally screwing my morality with afk pet kills and how it made them by far my least favourite character.

You would definitely be losing combat power by actively toggling your pets to not attack good but the peace of mind of knowing your pets can strike first against likely attackers without accidentally locking yourself out of your stronghold that maintains a permanent ward vs evil feels like it would be an option some people would appreciate. Would also likely serve as a workround for most of the complaints I've seen with pets fighting unfactioned npc angels of wild elysium pets whilst heading off future edge cases.

Also notably hostile to agressive includes factionless characters which is a source of quite a few of the complaints I've seen. Possibly if it came the angelic way it would need you to stay non-evil like the rev exalted fauna thing.

[SkullFace]

Good characters have a number of difficulties in combat. They need to buy a 10CP Sense Morality skill to even know who valid targets are, assuming they aren't just willing to attack anyone and potentially lose their MO. And angels need to buy the (normally 60CP) Hand of Zealotry skill to even fight back against neutral targets, to avoid losing all their abilities completely when attacking in response. Even then, picking up HoZ can lock the angel out of potential options, such as Lightspeakers being unable to donate pets to Alonai for their endgame if they have HoZ.

All of which are straw arguments that really should be put to be bed once and for all. Sense MO is not required, rather it's Common Sense. A simple tap with a low damage weapon or spell, or viewing the profile of the character, will reveal the likely MO of a potential target. There is no catastrophic loss of abilities for 99% of the Angelic horde, it's a fiction. MO inertia will keep truly Good characters in a state of grace. For those rare occasions when someone really messes up there are 10 CP utility abilities such as Engineering or the Advocat who can wash away your sins with click of a button.

Neutral targets are supposed to represent the Unaligned who have potential to be saved and join the cause of Righteousness. When you sign on for an Angel you are supposed to be Good and the power you get comes at a price. Easy slaughter of anyone you disagree with, currently a feature of the Angelic horde, should not be part of the deal unless you are prepared to go over the edge. As I have stated in prior Breaths - anyone can walk the path of a monster, to walk the path of a saint is extremely difficult.

Unaligned characters have none of those problems. They're free to chop up whoever they like. A Lich or Elementalist can set their pets free on any room and reap all the EXP. And their pets aren't going to be concerned about the MO when defending the petmaster. But the benefit of all that - not needing to invest 70CP in MO-focused skills, not needing to pass up on targets, not needing to take a skill that could lock out future options - is in exchange for the pets being free to attack anything they like. As much as my Revenant would like their ̶w̶o̶l̶v̶e̶s̶ foxes to only eat the bad people, they're still inclined to munch on whatever angel happens by as well. Which means that I need to be willing to put the pets on defensive or unsummon them when trying to play nice with others.

Again, nobody need invest 70 CP in MO focussed skills, this is a myth, a straw argument. And the Lightspeaker endgame is entirely voluntary, it is a choice not a "woe is me I'm missing out".

Unaligned characters lack many of the benefits of the forces of Evil and Good. They are pretty much the whipping boy of the Nexus. As noted elsewhere, no Angel or Demon suffers default planar damage on Neutral planes; their planes are the literal hunting ground for the Aligned classes. Neutrals are treated as the Nexal equivalent of the Palestinian civilians of Gaza, hunted with impunity by Angel and Demon scum.

If there are any significant changes coming then arguably the Neutral / Unaligned aspects of gameplay should get those changes first. The unaligned are long overdue some upward balancing, not the depowering that is being mooted elsewhere in these forums (e.g. Eye of Death, Lich).

[erikune]

All of which are straw arguments that really should be put to be bed once and for all. Sense MO is not required, rather it's Common Sense. A simple tap with a low damage weapon or spell, or viewing the profile of the character, will reveal the likely MO of a potential target. There is no catastrophic loss of abilities for 99% of the Angelic horde, it's a fiction.

The old reliable "taste morality" strategy can work for a low level hunter who is just trying to find sleeping targets, at least for a time. Even love-tapping for a MO check will result in the hits to the morality, meaning an eventual stop to attacking altogether and needing to search for FAKs or take Engineering (mentioned below) to correct.

You are right that someone can conclude the MO of a lot of characters in the Nexus: angels are good, demons are evil, NCs are neutral, all transcended NPCs are neutral. But this does assume a sleeping target or an inactive NPC character. Against an active opponent, or against a large pet shield, things work a bit differently. I don't think someone can just click on a character's profile and check if they're an NPC when ten pets are eating their face; they need to choose to fight back or run away. And choosing to fight at the wrong time can easily drop a character under 20 MO, especially if they've already been taking MO hits by attacking other targets.

I don't see this as a problem, necessarily. It's just as aspect of angel life. You either attack and take the risk of your MO dropping too much, or you choose to pass up targets unless your more certain of their MO or there is less risk. It's getting T3 powers in exchange for needing to be more discerning with action choices, much like how demons get T3 powers in exchange for nobody else being able to heal them.

MO inertia will keep truly Good characters in a state of grace. For those rare occasions when someone really messes up there are 10 CP utility abilities such as Engineering or the Advocat who can wash away your sins with click of a button.

I'll admit, I'm not that familiar with exactly how the MO inertia system works. From what I've seen about it, it seems to mostly penalize good characters and for characters towards evil when gaming the system (or at least make gaming the system harder). Did someone kill an angel and then expect to repair doors to recover their MO? Well now it takes longer for them to get back up to positive, because the angel kill is lowering the MO gain from the inertia.

I've not really noticed it happening in reverse - I don't know if killing demons makes MO-lowering actions give less of a hit - so I can't say if that changes the situation. It certainly would if that's the case, but my good-Revenant doesn't have any more blood ice/soul ice to see if they take the same MO hit after chewing on a 6-pack of IBs. I guess I'll find found in B6.

I'll also point out how the required 10CP Sense Morality is considered a "strawman" but the solution is to purchase the 10CP Engineering skill. I'll admit that Engineering has more utility than Sense Morality, but it's still practically a requirement. And sure, it's not technically required - a good MO character could just gain EXP from healing, Engineering, Repair, Alchemy, and so on. But "be a crafter" isn't a good reply to somebody wanting to play a combat angel character. It's not bad to have such restrictions or forcing a player to do the extra work, but I don't think that claiming there are none is fair either.

Also, how does a -40 MO character get to talk with an Advocate to get their sin eaten, outside being in the same faction or some discord conversations? My experience with evil characters and Advocates have generally not involved the skill Sin Eater, even when the characters don't attack or have all pets set to defensive/passive. It's also not very relevant to a character who has dropped to 19 MO, either losing their angel powers or just losing the protecting of Elysium pets, which is generally the situation we're looking at here. I doubt a combat-crazed Seraph is going to drop all the way to -40 MO even if they're ignoring target morality.

Again, nobody need invest 70 CP in MO focussed skills, this is a myth, a straw argument.

I've addressed Sense Morality above, but do people honestly use angelic characters to attack neutral targets without Hand of Zealotry? It seems like a very risky situation. Sure, an angel at 40 MO could probably take the hit and stay in good MO, assuming they deal enough damage.

However, in the discussion of Lightspeaker pets, I don't think that's relevant. Lightspeaker pets will attack neutral targets ONLY with the HoZ skill, with a few exceptions. A Lightspeaker who wants their wheel to roll over neutral targets doesn't even get the iffy proposition of taking a MO hit to get a kill. Instead, their pets just act like they're passive against anything but evil targets without the skill purchase.

And the Lightspeaker endgame is entirely voluntary, it is a choice not a "woe is me I'm missing out".

Fair enough. Other T3 endgames do require some specific skills to access or interact with, after all.

Unaligned characters lack many of the benefits of the forces of Evil and Good. They are pretty much the whipping boy of the Nexus. As noted elsewhere, no Angel or Demon suffers default planar damage on Neutral planes; their planes are the literal hunting ground for the Aligned classes.

Really? I've always considered unaligned characters to be the most versatile. Conduits can craft every enchantment but holy/unholy, Luches and Elementalist can petshield in any faction, ESs and even NCs can jump into nearly any faction they want. While unaligned factions suffer a number of restrictions based on needing to have unaligned (restricted) morality by definition, the unaligned classes themselves have a lot more variety.

Altho the idea of angels and demons suffering planar damage on B6 Purg (even if just in specific areas, like the stronger environmental damage on Elysium/Stygia) that doesn't affect transcended or mortals does sound like a good idea. It could work as a "more safe" zone for strictly transcended characters to help keep demons and angels out.

If there are any significant changes coming then arguably the Neutral / Unaligned aspects of gameplay should get those changes first. The unaligned are long overdue some upward balancing, not the depowering that is being mooted elsewhere in these forums (e.g. Eye of Death, Lich).

I think that changes can be applied to everyone at equal pacing. I don't know that the development of Nexus Clash involves so much focus that people need to only make changes to one class at a time. More changes for angels or demons probably means there were better ideas to implement for those classes, as opposed to a deliberate attempt to make angels characters better than transcended characters.

I'm not sure why there's an interest in nerfing Eye of Death. I've not use the skill myself, and it can be used in conjunction with Psychic Bloodhound and Psychometry to help with tracking as opposed to instead of it.